El Al in talks to buy Airbus A321neo
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 2023-08-10

chiad wrote:

El Al in talks to buy Airbus A321neo
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 2023-08-10

That's somewhat misleading since the article clearly states that they're in talks with both OEMs. You know how it works with El Al - they talk to Airbus, then buy Boeings.

The orders thread is not the right place to discuss possible orders, hence the post have been moved accordingly.

Still, more worthy than endless posts on the colour of the anti-corrosion protection on the fuselages of AI A350s, I'd have thought, though! Who knows, perhaps El Al will take the plunge this time, given that the market has decided that the A321 is the better product.

Why on earth was my post deleted, where I stated ElAl will never buy Airbus. They have in the past ordered A330's but were "motivated" by their friends in the US of A not to take them.

Google is your friend - https://www.flightglobal.com/el-al-quietly-cancels-plans-for-airbus-a330-acquisition-/35169.article

So I guess this post will be deleted again, despite being on topic, watch this 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - gone

Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath for El Al ordering from Airbus.

Heavierthanair wrote:

Why on earth was my post deleted, where I stated ElAl will never buy Airbus. They have in the past ordered A330's but were "motivated" by their friends in the US of A not to take them.

Google is your friend - https://www.flightglobal.com/el-al-quietly-cancels-plans-for-airbus-a330-acquisition-/35169.article

So I guess this post will be deleted again, despite being on topic, watch this 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - gone

Because you are making political statements and assumptions that EL AL will only buy from Boeing due to political pressure from the US. That is your point, correct? Politics verboten in this forum.

With the recent opening of Saudi and Omani airspace to Israeli carriers, a lot of markets are now in the range of the A321XLR, such as all of India. And the opening of Sudan airspace opens up west Africa markets as well, which are too long and thin for their current fleet.

ElroyJetson wrote:

Heavierthanair wrote:

Why on earth was my post deleted, where I stated ElAl will never buy Airbus. They have in the past ordered A330's but were "motivated" by their friends in the US of A not to take them.

Google is your friend - https://www.flightglobal.com/el-al-quietly-cancels-plans-for-airbus-a330-acquisition-/35169.article

So I guess this post will be deleted again, despite being on topic, watch this 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - gone

Because you are making political statements and assumptions that EL AL will only buy from Boeing due to political pressure from the US. That is your point, correct? Politics verboten in this forum.

Even when it is crucial to the topic being debated?

ElroyJetson wrote:

Heavierthanair wrote:

Why on earth was my post deleted, where I stated ElAl will never buy Airbus. They have in the past ordered A330's but were "motivated" by their friends in the US of A not to take them.

Google is your friend - https://www.flightglobal.com/el-al-quietly-cancels-plans-for-airbus-a330-acquisition-/35169.article

So I guess this post will be deleted again, despite being on topic, watch this 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - gone

Because you are making political statements and assumptions that EL AL will only buy from Boeing due to political pressure from the US. That is your point, correct? Politics verboten in this forum.

I realize it is somewhat political, but then again its a fact and stated in the Flightglobal article too

DartHerald wrote:

Still, more worthy than endless posts on the colour of the anti-corrosion protection on the fuselages of AI A350s, I'd have thought, though! Who knows, perhaps El Al will take the plunge this time, given that the market has decided that the A321 is the better product.

I think they might well also, given the added seats and better range vs. the 737-10. However, I don't think the MAX will be entirely frozen out; El Al will possibly also order smaller MAX variants in addition to A321-NEOs. Going with the base A321-NEO also opens the door for adding the LR and/or XLR models later on, if it makes sense for them to do so.

Heavierthanair wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Heavierthanair wrote:

Why on earth was my post deleted, where I stated ElAl will never buy Airbus. They have in the past ordered A330's but were "motivated" by their friends in the US of A not to take them.

Google is your friend - https://www.flightglobal.com/el-al-quietly-cancels-plans-for-airbus-a330-acquisition-/35169.article

So I guess this post will be deleted again, despite being on topic, watch this 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - gone

Because you are making political statements and assumptions that EL AL will only buy from Boeing due to political pressure from the US. That is your point, correct? Politics verboten in this forum.

I realize it is somewhat political, but then again its a fact and stated in the Flightglobal article too

The US typically gives up economical benefits in favor of security agreements, not the other way around, it was part of the Bretton Woods agreements after WW2 to counter the Soviets.

Maybe, just maybe, El Al just prefers to keep their fleet Boeing? In this case we don't even know which way they are going yet.

So, AB will build them in Mobile. Sorted!

Hi, I knew about this a few months already, I have some inside info, this time it’s serious, unfortunately as long as Boeing cannot compete with A321 neo, you will see a lot of defection to airbus, don’t forget that the majority owner these days is a private citizen who lives in NY and they make decisions based on financial reasons and not on political reasons

tommyy wrote:

Hi, I knew about this a few months already, I have some inside info, this time it’s serious, unfortunately as long as Boeing cannot compete with A321 neo, you will see a lot of defection to airbus, don’t forget that the majority owner these days is a private citizen who lives in NY and they make decisions based on financial reasons and not on political reasons

I understand, and think the same. Sure ELAL can have talks with Airbus for any A321 versions, but in the end I think they will go for the 737 Max-10!!!

Another potential defection to narrowbody Airbii, though after KL and QF I guess it wouldn't really be a shock anymore. The MAX makes sense for an existing 737 operator, the XLR would open up a lot of new routes and so not surprising they'd be very strongly considering it.

MrHMSH wrote:

Another potential defection to narrowbody Airbii, though after KL and QF I guess it wouldn't really be a shock anymore. The MAX makes sense for an existing 737 operator, the XLR would open up a lot of new routes and so not surprising they'd be very strongly considering it.

If EL AL is considering India the A321 XLR makes sense.

Heavierthanair wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Heavierthanair wrote:

Why on earth was my post deleted, where I stated ElAl will never buy Airbus. They have in the past ordered A330's but were "motivated" by their friends in the US of A not to take them.

Google is your friend - https://www.flightglobal.com/el-al-quietly-cancels-plans-for-airbus-a330-acquisition-/35169.article

So I guess this post will be deleted again, despite being on topic, watch this 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - gone

Because you are making political statements and assumptions that EL AL will only buy from Boeing due to political pressure from the US. That is your point, correct? Politics verboten in this forum.

I realize it is somewhat political, but then again its a fact and stated in the Flightglobal article too

I’ve re-read your linked article three times, and nowhere am I able to see the “facts” you state are there.

You state El Al has ‘ordered’ A330’s in the past. The article clearly states they announced their intention to acquire A330’s and 777’s, but only the 777’s were ever firmed. Thus El Al never ‘ordered’ A330’s. So not a fact.

You also state they were “motivated” by the US not to take their ordered A330’s. But as above, they never actually ordered them. And second, nowhere in the article is the US even mentioned, other than El Al being a Boeing-only operator. In fact, it specifically states there being internal debate around being able to afford both the 777’s and A330’s. So again, not a fact.

Hamlet69 wrote:

Heavierthanair wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Because you are making political statements and assumptions that EL AL will only buy from Boeing due to political pressure from the US. That is your point, correct? Politics verboten in this forum.

I realize it is somewhat political, but then again its a fact and stated in the Flightglobal article too

I’ve re-read your linked article three times, and nowhere am I able to see the “facts” you state are there.

You state El Al has ‘ordered’ A330’s in the past. The article clearly states they announced their intention to acquire A330’s and 777’s, but only the 777’s were ever firmed. Thus El Al never ‘ordered’ A330’s. So not a fact.

You also state they were “motivated” by the US not to take their ordered A330’s. But as above, they never actually ordered them. And second, nowhere in the article is the US even mentioned, other than El Al being a Boeing-only operator. In fact, it specifically states there being internal debate around being able to afford both the 777’s and A330’s. So again, not a fact.

Sometimes it's more important to wish something was true than it actually being true.

It's Boeing's order to lose here, but 321neos would be personally preferred.

On the note of LY's fleet, I was pretty surprised to see them gutting only 4 out of their 6 777s rather than ordering some 78Xs and standardizing the labor and mx pools.

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

colganreturns wrote:

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

The 737 MAX 10 appears to be better optimized than the A321 NEO for short to mid range stage lengths. There is an excellent article by Air Insight talking about the competition between Ryanair and Wizz Air. One will fly the MAX 10, the other flies the A321 Neo. Their average stage lengths are 828 miles and 1028 miles respectively. This is where the vast bulk of narrow body flying occurs. As much as folks like to talk about narrow bodies flying 3500 nm flights, that is not the norm.

The A321 Neo wins versus the 737 Max 8-200 per Air Insight, but the MAX 10 is more than competitive except at narrow body long range where the A321 Neo pretty much has the market to itself.

Bottom line: Both are very good aircraft. I assume it will come down to price and the specific needs of LY more than anything else.

colganreturns wrote:

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

Why can't you see an A321 fitted with the C-Music system?

This article states it is made by Elbit Systems and "Suitable for integration with other commercial aircraft and business jets"

https://www.flightglobal.com/paris-el-a ... 43.article

I would assume, for instance, the Luftwaffe Airbus fleet has some kind of countermeasures installed.

Alternatively I found this:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... ermeasures

Edit:
Elbit themselves say it is certified for A320s.
https://elbitsystems.com/media/c_music_2018letter_1.pdf

ElroyJetson wrote:

colganreturns wrote:

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

The 737 MAX 10 appears to be better optimized than the A321 NEO for short to mid range stage lengths. There is an excellent article by Air Insight talking about the competition between Ryanair and Wizz Air. One will fly the MAX 10, the other flies the A321 Neo. Their average stage lengths are 828 miles and 1028 miles respectively. This is where the vast bulk of narrow body flying occurs. As much as folks like to talk about narrow bodies flying 3500 nm flights, that is not the norm.

The A321 Neo wins versus the 737 Max 8-200 per Air Insight, but the MAX 10 is more than competitive except at narrow body long range where the A321 Neo pretty much has the market to itself.

Bottom line: Both are very good aircraft. I assume it will come down to price and the specific needs of LY more than anything else.

I am would take the airinsight numbers regarding the 737 max 10 with a pinch of salt. There is no real world data and I think the final OEW is not even known…

Time for Boeing to drop the 10th and save money?

ElroyJetson wrote:

colganreturns wrote:

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

The 737 MAX 10 appears to be better optimized than the A321 NEO for short to mid range stage lengths. There is an excellent article by Air Insight talking about the competition between Ryanair and Wizz Air. One will fly the MAX 10, the other flies the A321 Neo. Their average stage lengths are 828 miles and 1028 miles respectively. This is where the vast bulk of narrow body flying occurs. As much as folks like to talk about narrow bodies flying 3500 nm flights, that is not the norm.

The A321 Neo wins versus the 737 Max 8-200 per Air Insight, but the MAX 10 is more than competitive except at narrow body long range where the A321 Neo pretty much has the market to itself.

Bottom line: Both are very good aircraft. I assume it will come down to price and the specific needs of LY more than anything else.

It's been said many times on here that the MAX generally fares better on the shorter routes, and that most of the routes flown are there, and this seems to be accurate, however the vast gulf in sales numbers for the larger MAXs compared to A321s in ceo and neo guise indicates that something else is much more important, something that even earlier availability and sometimes even a lower price offering cannot overcome a lot of the time.

All well and good saying that the MAX can hold its own in a lot of areas, but there must be something else to it than that.

Based on past experience with A vs B competitions run at LY, once the evaluation is complete Airbus might come out on top with the A321 NEO but it will be the 737 MAX 10 that wins the day and is ordered.

Wildlander wrote:

Based on past experience with A vs B competitions run at LY, once the evaluation is complete Airbus might come out on top with the A321 NEO but it will be the 737 MAX 10 that wins the day and is ordered.

Such a reality has certainly not hurt the sales of the A321 or other Airbus products as LY is just a small player in the client base, so perhaps political significance is more important than the actual sale?

MrHMSH wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

colganreturns wrote:

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

The 737 MAX 10 appears to be better optimized than the A321 NEO for short to mid range stage lengths. There is an excellent article by Air Insight talking about the competition between Ryanair and Wizz Air. One will fly the MAX 10, the other flies the A321 Neo. Their average stage lengths are 828 miles and 1028 miles respectively. This is where the vast bulk of narrow body flying occurs. As much as folks like to talk about narrow bodies flying 3500 nm flights, that is not the norm.

The A321 Neo wins versus the 737 Max 8-200 per Air Insight, but the MAX 10 is more than competitive except at narrow body long range where the A321 Neo pretty much has the market to itself.

Bottom line: Both are very good aircraft. I assume it will come down to price and the specific needs of LY more than anything else.

It's been said many times on here that the MAX generally fares better on the shorter routes, and that most of the routes flown are there, and this seems to be accurate, however the vast gulf in sales numbers for the larger MAXs compared to A321s in ceo and neo guise indicates that something else is much more important, something that even earlier availability and sometimes even a lower price offering cannot overcome a lot of the time.

All well and good saying that the MAX can hold its own in a lot of areas, but there must be something else to it than that.

I agree. The A321 Neo is more versatile imho and the MAX has had its troubles to say the least. Per Air insight both the MAX 8 and MAX 8-200 are not as competitive as the A321 Neo which is why Ryanair is desperate to get their hands on the MAX 10 as soon as possible. Plus the MAX 10 has been so delayed in coming to market Airbus has had the opportunity to sell the A321 Neo by the bucket load.

My take on the A321 Neo is that it is a very efficient aircraft. Excellent frankly. Even issues with the PW engine have not seemed to slow sales. Boeing's only answer is the MAX 10 which is a worthy competitor on short to medium sectors, but obviously longer range narrow body routes the A321 Neo has no real competition.

If LY continues to keep their narrow body fleet within Europe the MAX 10 can work well. If they want to expand to India or beyond you would have to go with the A321 Neo imho.


This is the Air Insight link I mentioned. Interesting reading. https://airinsight.com/max10-vs-a321-in ... an-market/

Sometime spolitics is more imporant than best plane. BMax10 is clearly worse than A321neo but this isnt about best plane, this is about politics. Lets see...

MillwallSean wrote:

Sometime spolitics is more imporant than best plane. BMax10 is clearly worse than A321neo but this isnt about best plane, this is about politics. Lets see...

Why clearly worse?

ElroyJetson wrote:

Why clearly worse?

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse. Very hard to make any other statements when the one is currently flying and being delivered and the other is not yet certified so we don't have much information about it.

MillwallSean wrote:

Sometime spolitics is more imporant than best plane. BMax10 is clearly worse than A321neo but this isnt about best plane, this is about politics. Lets see...

Largely supposition on your part unless you can show a link that says politics is a determining factor in this case. If you mean that the A321neo has more capacity and better range, nobody disputes that but how are you sure they want or need that added capacity and range? It depends on how they plan to deploy these planes and if they don't need that added range, they may well go for the lighter aircraft which is surely the 737-10, being somewhat smaller and with smaller and lighter engines. If they do need added seats and range, I think the A321neo has an opportunity here. If the Airbus looks to be a better fit, I don't think sheer politics would get in the way.

enzo011 wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Why clearly worse?

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse. Very hard to make any other statements when the one is currently flying and being delivered and the other is not yet certified so we don't have much information about it.

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

AvObserver wrote:

MillwallSean wrote:

Sometime spolitics is more imporant than best plane. BMax10 is clearly worse than A321neo but this isnt about best plane, this is about politics. Lets see...

Largely supposition on your part unless you can show a link that says politics is a determining factor in this case. If you mean that the A321neo has more capacity and better range, nobody disputes that but how are you sure they want or need that added capacity and range? It depends on how they plan to deploy these planes and if they don't need that added range, they may well go for the lighter aircraft which is surely the 737-10, being somewhat smaller and with smaller and lighter engines. If they do need added seats and range, I think the A321neo has an opportunity here. If the Airbus looks to be a better fit, I don't think sheer politics would get in the way.

It's not about facts or logic. It's about one OEM over the other. Simple as that.

ElroyJetson wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Why clearly worse?

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse. Very hard to make any other statements when the one is currently flying and being delivered and the other is not yet certified so we don't have much information about it.

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

The fact the 737-10 is "not flying yet" doesn't seem to stop the opposite argument being made.

Airbus aren't desperate for A321neo sales, especially not from El Al considering their track record. I expect any discussion about orders will be given the priority it deserves based on how serious the airline appears to be. Similar to Airbus' relationship with FR.

ElroyJetson wrote:

It's not about facts or logic. It's about one OEM over the other. Simple as that.

It's admirable and borderline astounding how you seemingly lack any sense of irony.

ElroyJetson wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Why clearly worse?

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse. Very hard to make any other statements when the one is currently flying and being delivered and the other is not yet certified so we don't have much information about it.

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

All projections and estimations indicate that the MAX 10 will have less flexibility and as an overall product is lacking compared to the competition. Nothing has ever proven otherwise, and plenty has proven it so, not least of all what is being discussed above.

MrHMSH wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse. Very hard to make any other statements when the one is currently flying and being delivered and the other is not yet certified so we don't have much information about it.

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

All projections and estimations indicate that the MAX 10 will have less flexibility and as an overall product is lacking compared to the competition. Nothing has ever proven otherwise, and plenty has proven it so, not least of all what is being discussed above.

737-10 will be less capable overall and therefore less flexible in overall operations. However, for many (but not most) operators, less will be more for them and lighter weight will carry the day for shorter route deployment. The 737-10 was only offered and launched in 2017 so of course it's years behind the A321neo as a salable product. And its brisk order pace to date shows that plenty of 737 operators are happy with its specifications. While it will never catch up to the A321neo orderbook, a good deal of the reason for that is the lack of a dedicated long range variant like the A321neo offers, along with the MAX grounding fallout. And the ongoing certification delays are a concern too but for now, it's selling very well for a model that's supposedly so inferior. Maybe it's all in how one defines that one product is inferior or superior to the competition. The MAX 10 is undeniably less capacious and less capable than A321neo but still running up impressive order totals nonetheless.

ReverseFlow wrote:

colganreturns wrote:

For all the advantages A321neos have over Boeing's current offerings, I think LY will stick with the latter... for a few reasons.
Mostly, I just can't see Airbus aircraft being fitted with the C-MUSIC system, but talking to Toulouse should make a few suits sweat (a little) over at Boeing.
Nothing wrong with extracting concessions where and when you can...

Why can't you see an A321 fitted with the C-Music system?

This article states it is made by Elbit Systems and "Suitable for integration with other commercial aircraft and business jets"

https://www.flightglobal.com/paris-el-a ... 43.article

I would assume, for instance, the Luftwaffe Airbus fleet has some kind of countermeasures installed.

Alternatively I found this:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... ermeasures

Edit:
Elbit themselves say it is certified for A320s.
https://elbitsystems.com/media/c_music_2018letter_1.pdf

Does anyone remember El Al flying 757-200's to the USA from TLV? Of course with a fueling stop in England I want to say. If El Al creates the right atmosphere, other US cities in the East mat happen.

AvObserver wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

All projections and estimations indicate that the MAX 10 will have less flexibility and as an overall product is lacking compared to the competition. Nothing has ever proven otherwise, and plenty has proven it so, not least of all what is being discussed above.

737-10 will be less capable overall and therefore less flexible in overall operations. However, for many (but not most) operators, less will be more for them and lighter weight will carry the day for shorter route deployment. The 737-10 was only offered and launched in 2017 so of course it's years behind the A321neo as a salable product. And its brisk order pace to date shows that plenty of 737 operators are happy with its specifications. While it will never catch up to the A321neo orderbook, a good deal of the reason for that is the lack of a dedicated long range variant like the A321neo offers, along with the MAX grounding fallout. And the ongoing certification delays are a concern too but for now, it's selling very well for a model that's supposedly so inferior. Maybe it's all in how one defines that one product is inferior or superior to the competition. The MAX 10 is undeniably less capacious and less capable than A321neo but still running up impressive order totals nonetheless.

The 737 max 9 is already about the same OEW as the A321neo. No way that the 737 max 10 is lighter then the A321neo…

MrHMSH wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse. Very hard to make any other statements when the one is currently flying and being delivered and the other is not yet certified so we don't have much information about it.

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

All projections and estimations indicate that the MAX 10 will have less flexibility and as an overall product is lacking compared to the competition. Nothing has ever proven otherwise, and plenty has proven it so, not least of all what is being discussed above.

I said exactly the same thing. I believe I used the phrase more versatile. But per Air Insight for typical narrow body missions the MAX looks very competitive. I believe that is also true, despite the many Airbus fanbois claiming the MAX 10 is crap.

Would Airbus have to make special sub-versions of an A321 to meet El Al's unique security requirements ? I am quite sure Boeing is far more familiar with such requirements and El Al/ the Israeli Government may want to limit who know of such requirements.
One other issue with switching to Airbus is the very different way they are operated and the need for extensive pilot and maintenance re-training from Boeings.
Boeing could also make significant discounts on 737MAX's if Israel buys more of its military planes, Airbus is weak vs. Boeing as to military aircraft.
Also the relationship of Israel and Europe is very different that generations ago.

crimsonchin wrote:

Airbus aren't desperate for A321neo sales, especially not from El Al considering their track record. I expect any discussion about orders will be given the priority it deserves based on how serious the airline appears to be. Similar to Airbus' relationship with FR.

ElroyJetson wrote:

It's not about facts or logic. It's about one OEM over the other. Simple as that.

It's admirable and borderline astounding how you seemingly lack any sense of irony.

It's astounding how poor your reading skills are. I took great pains to highlight how good a plane the A321Neo is. In fact I said it was frankly excellent. Yet, somehow in your mind it becomes something else entirely.

Ironic, no?

BN727227Ultra wrote:

So, AB will build them in Mobile. Sorted!

They aren’t built in Mobile, they are only assembled

enzo011 wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Why clearly worse?

You can just look at orders to see it is clearly worse.

With your logic, Ferrari cars are clearly worse than BMW cars...

JonesNL wrote:

AvObserver wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

All projections and estimations indicate that the MAX 10 will have less flexibility and as an overall product is lacking compared to the competition. Nothing has ever proven otherwise, and plenty has proven it so, not least of all what is being discussed above.

737-10 will be less capable overall and therefore less flexible in overall operations. However, for many (but not most) operators, less will be more for them and lighter weight will carry the day for shorter route deployment. The 737-10 was only offered and launched in 2017 so of course it's years behind the A321neo as a salable product. And its brisk order pace to date shows that plenty of 737 operators are happy with its specifications. While it will never catch up to the A321neo orderbook, a good deal of the reason for that is the lack of a dedicated long range variant like the A321neo offers, along with the MAX grounding fallout. And the ongoing certification delays are a concern too but for now, it's selling very well for a model that's supposedly so inferior. Maybe it's all in how one defines that one product is inferior or superior to the competition. The MAX 10 is undeniably less capacious and less capable than A321neo but still running up impressive order totals nonetheless.

The 737 max 9 is already about the same OEW as the A321neo. No way that the 737 max 10 is lighter then the A321neo…

Where are your OEW stats then? I'm not finding any in broad searches; just MTOW. And those stats show that both MAX 9 and 10 take off lighter than a standard A321neo. Which makes sense because they are both smaller than an A321neo with smaller, lighter engines (Leap 1A vs. Leap 1B). https://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/A ... 737_MAX_9/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A321neo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX

ElroyJetson wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

So one is not flying yet and therefore it is clearly worse. Got it.

All projections and estimations indicate that the MAX 10 will have less flexibility and as an overall product is lacking compared to the competition. Nothing has ever proven otherwise, and plenty has proven it so, not least of all what is being discussed above.

I said exactly the same thing. I believe I used the phrase more versatile. But per Air Insight for typical narrow body missions the MAX looks very competitive. I believe that is also true, despite the many Airbus fanbois claiming the MAX 10 is crap.

Well, you are taking issue with someone saying 'clearly worse'. 'Clearly' means the same as 'evidently' and 'obviously', 'worse' is a relative term. I don't see how this can be disputed.

Being better at one fairly specific aspect is not enough to overturn a quite apparent trend, In certain cases the MAX 10 will look appealing, as it does to El Al, but in most cases... not quite.

Gonzalo wrote:

With your logic, Ferrari cars are clearly worse than BMW cars...

This is quite disingenuous.

ltbewr wrote:

Would Airbus have to make special sub-versions of an A321 to meet El Al's unique security requirements ? I am quite sure Boeing is far more familiar with such requirements and El Al/ the Israeli Government may want to limit who know of such requirements.
One other issue with switching to Airbus is the very different way they are operated and the need for extensive pilot and maintenance re-training from Boeings.
Boeing could also make significant discounts on 737MAX's if Israel buys more of its military planes, Airbus is weak vs. Boeing as to military aircraft.
Also the relationship of Israel and Europe is very different that generations ago.

I'm quite sure Airbus has some relevant experience when it comes to protecting aircraft from various threats.

https://www.airbus.com/en/products-services/defence/military-aircraft