f4f3a wrote:

It's 900 flight hours ie block . So actual is much higher.

f4f3a wrote:

Rostering at virgin since covid has been dreadful. Lots of minium rest between East West trips. Overnight flights etc. Sleeping patterns are also messed up with the multiple time changes .

f4f3a wrote:

Since flying fatigued is the same as having several glasses of alcohol its not a good thing to do.

f4f3a wrote:

It's 900 flight hours ie block . So actual is much higher. Rostering at virgin since covid has been dreadful. Lots of minium rest between East West trips. Overnight flights etc. Sleeping patterns are also messed up with the multiple time changes . Since flying fatigued is the same as having several glasses of alcohol its not a good thing to do.

BA777FO wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Fatigue?! @<900hrs per year?!?! I call BS. I suggest if you are tired from that then you have medical issues. I do about 2.5times that but I like my job so I don’t really care.

If it’s tiring because you’re away from your family regularly, do a different effing job, that’s like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the noise.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How often do you two-crew LHR-TPA-LHR, two days off, two-crew LHR-MCO-LHR repeat for the rest of the month? And how many times do you go from a day shift, 24 hours off, cross 5 or 6 time zones and then do a night shift? And then land an aircraft at the end of it?

People have no idea. Let's hope the next time you fly the crew are well rested.

flipdewaf wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Fatigue?! @<900hrs per year?!?! I call BS. I suggest if you are tired from that then you have medical issues. I do about 2.5times that but I like my job so I don’t really care.

If it’s tiring because you’re away from your family regularly, do a different effing job, that’s like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the noise.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How often do you two-crew LHR-TPA-LHR, two days off, two-crew LHR-MCO-LHR repeat for the rest of the month? And how many times do you go from a day shift, 24 hours off, cross 5 or 6 time zones and then do a night shift? And then land an aircraft at the end of it?

People have no idea. Let's hope the next time you fly the crew are well rested.

I have regularly done 4x TATL trips in a month to spend them working nights trouble shooting in a factory and then flying home. Yes I was piloting but I got home and took my family in our HGV across the country between and it’s ok. I just had to plan and manage it like a pilot should be able to with their spare 1300 hrs a year. That’s what those extras are for, if you can’t manage it, do a job you can manage. Safety is of course important but it’s pretty obvious when it’s used as a silencing tactic. I’m absolutely not saying pilots need to “grow a pair and battle through” but a certain amount of perspective goes a long way. If it’s too hard to manage a rest schedule that sees you work ~1/3 of normal hours then probably not as professional as it would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mikejepp wrote:

Say their average flight is 10 hours long and involves being awake most or all of the night (crew rest on a plane hardly counts as quality sleep). 900 hours a year equates to 90 of these legs, or roughly 1 out of every 4 nights, of the entire year, being off normal sleep schedules.

I'd be exhausted and fatigued also. Those of you who aren't pilots or who haven't worked overnight hours don't understand what this can do to a person.

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Say their average flight is 10 hours long and involves being awake most or all of the night (crew rest on a plane hardly counts as quality sleep). 900 hours a year equates to 90 of these legs, or roughly 1 out of every 4 nights, of the entire year, being off normal sleep schedules.

I'd be exhausted and fatigued also. Those of you who aren't pilots or who haven't worked overnight hours don't understand what this can do to a person.

Make those your awake hours then! Plenty of paramedics, police, doctors do this (and more) and generally have a lot more stress during those working hours.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

arcticcruiser wrote:

A few really arrogant posts here by non-pilots. First of all "regulators are professionals". Are they? Or politicians? Let´s keep this on a European level, as Virgin is a (semi) European airline. Not many pilots would consider EASA Flight Time Limitations (FTL) "professional".
On top of block hours, there is the "duty time" from check-in to check-out. So 700 block hours become closer to 900 hrs. Then training days are more duty hours, as are standby days. Required rest (even with EASA FTL), time-zone adaptation (I regularly fly over 7-8 hr timezones) all amount to further time.
There are a lot of fatigued pilots in Europe this summer for to the same reason as the Virgin pilots. How tired are the pilots on your next flight going to be? Through June and July, I was constantly at 95-98 hrs in a 28-29 day lookback, flying from 2 to 7 timezones pr duty. The maximum per the "professional" EASA is 100 hrs in 28 days. Why 28 days? Who drew that number out of a hat? Was it calculated "professionally"? No it was a political compromise.

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Say their average flight is 10 hours long and involves being awake most or all of the night (crew rest on a plane hardly counts as quality sleep). 900 hours a year equates to 90 of these legs, or roughly 1 out of every 4 nights, of the entire year, being off normal sleep schedules.

I'd be exhausted and fatigued also. Those of you who aren't pilots or who haven't worked overnight hours don't understand what this can do to a person.

Make those your awake hours then! Plenty of paramedics, police, doctors do this (and more) and generally have a lot more stress during those working hours.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly an example of people not understanding. Long haul widebody aircraft trips typically have an complete schedule flip during them, every single time. This is because you arrive and go to sleep at your destination and the exact same time, the following day, you are boarding to return.

mikejepp wrote:

For example, say an airplane you fly lands at its destination at 4am (at your home base, local body clock time) and then turns to go back with a 6am departure.

This means outbound, you are awake until 6-7am (by the time you deplane, customs, get to hotel, get in room, get into bed).

The next day, you likely have to be on the airplane at 430am and with transport time, customs, security, you likely have to leave the hotel at 3am. This necessitates waking up at 2am.

You then go home to normal life, your family, etc and your body really has no idea what schedule you want to be on.

mikejepp wrote:

Thats why it is so exhausting when these trips are back to back to back, you never get to recover and establish a normal sleep schedule, whether it be day or night oriented. When given breaks in between them you do.

arcticcruiser wrote:

And how many people suffer the consequences every year because of overworked doctors? Do you really want to go there? By luck I was saved permanent damage/death from a surgeon that had been on duty for 16 hrs and operated on me in the middle of the night. Saved by a sharp team around him. But not entirely, 3 months later, being in a third world country, I needed a medevac flight to hospital to fix what could be fixed of his shoddy work. Still have concequences.

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Make those your awake hours then! Plenty of paramedics, police, doctors do this (and more) and generally have a lot more stress during those working hours.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly an example of people not understanding. Long haul widebody aircraft trips typically have an complete schedule flip during them, every single time. This is because you arrive and go to sleep at your destination and the exact same time, the following day, you are boarding to return.

So not 90 trips as you said to start with, 45… so pulling an all nighter once a week and only 26hrs extra to make sure you’re prepared. I see the issue….

mikejepp wrote:

For example, say an airplane you fly lands at its destination at 4am (at your home base, local body clock time) and then turns to go back with a 6am departure.

This means outbound, you are awake until 6-7am (by the time you deplane, customs, get to hotel, get in room, get into bed).

The next day, you likely have to be on the airplane at 430am and with transport time, customs, security, you likely have to leave the hotel at 3am. This necessitates waking up at 2am.

You then go home to normal life, your family, etc and your body really has no idea what schedule you want to be on.

If you don’t like the lifestyle, don’t choose it as your job. Like I said don’t buy a house next to the airport and complain about the noise!

mikejepp wrote:

Thats why it is so exhausting when these trips are back to back to back, you never get to recover and establish a normal sleep schedule, whether it be day or night oriented. When given breaks in between them you do.

Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Figure8757 wrote:

I’m just a lowly crew scheduler but I work 4 16 hour shifts a week from 2pm-6am and am back at 2pm to do it all again. I’m getting tired of this industry existing to short change everyone without wings to fund pilots contracts. If you don’t like your job go do something else but stop screwing over the rest of the industry because you think you deserve more. You’re doing fine.

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Make those your awake hours then! Plenty of paramedics, police, doctors do this (and more) and generally have a lot more stress during those working hours.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly an example of people not understanding. Long haul widebody aircraft trips typically have an complete schedule flip during them, every single time. This is because you arrive and go to sleep at your destination and the exact same time, the following day, you are boarding to return.

So not 90 trips as you said to start with, 45…

mikejepp wrote:

For example, say an airplane you fly lands at its destination at 4am (at your home base, local body clock time) and then turns to go back with a 6am departure.

This means outbound, you are awake until 6-7am (by the time you deplane, customs, get to hotel, get in room, get into bed).

The next day, you likely have to be on the airplane at 430am and with transport time, customs, security, you likely have to leave the hotel at 3am. This necessitates waking up at 2am.

You then go home to normal life, your family, etc and your body really has no idea what schedule you want to be on.

If you don’t like the lifestyle, don’t choose it as your job. Like I said don’t buy a house next to the airport and complain about the noise!

mikejepp wrote:

Thats why it is so exhausting when these trips are back to back to back, you never get to recover and establish a normal sleep schedule, whether it be day or night oriented. When given breaks in between them you do.

Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Exactly an example of people not understanding. Long haul widebody aircraft trips typically have an complete schedule flip during them, every single time. This is because you arrive and go to sleep at your destination and the exact same time, the following day, you are boarding to return.

So not 90 trips as you said to start with, 45… so pulling an all nighter once a week and only 26hrs extra to make sure you’re prepared. I see the issue….

mikejepp wrote:

For example, say an airplane you fly lands at its destination at 4am (at your home base, local body clock time) and then turns to go back with a 6am departure.

This means outbound, you are awake until 6-7am (by the time you deplane, customs, get to hotel, get in room, get into bed).

The next day, you likely have to be on the airplane at 430am and with transport time, customs, security, you likely have to leave the hotel at 3am. This necessitates waking up at 2am.

You then go home to normal life, your family, etc and your body really has no idea what schedule you want to be on.

If you don’t like the lifestyle, don’t choose it as your job. Like I said don’t buy a house next to the airport and complain about the noise!

mikejepp wrote:

Thats why it is so exhausting when these trips are back to back to back, you never get to recover and establish a normal sleep schedule, whether it be day or night oriented. When given breaks in between them you do.

Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You could just admit you don't understand instead of writing these long posts.

Cactusjuba wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Exactly an example of people not understanding. Long haul widebody aircraft trips typically have an complete schedule flip during them, every single time. This is because you arrive and go to sleep at your destination and the exact same time, the following day, you are boarding to return.

So not 90 trips as you said to start with, 45…

mikejepp wrote:

For example, say an airplane you fly lands at its destination at 4am (at your home base, local body clock time) and then turns to go back with a 6am departure.

This means outbound, you are awake until 6-7am (by the time you deplane, customs, get to hotel, get in room, get into bed).

The next day, you likely have to be on the airplane at 430am and with transport time, customs, security, you likely have to leave the hotel at 3am. This necessitates waking up at 2am.

You then go home to normal life, your family, etc and your body really has no idea what schedule you want to be on.

If you don’t like the lifestyle, don’t choose it as your job. Like I said don’t buy a house next to the airport and complain about the noise!

mikejepp wrote:

Thats why it is so exhausting when these trips are back to back to back, you never get to recover and establish a normal sleep schedule, whether it be day or night oriented. When given breaks in between them you do.

Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow, these pilots are primadonas. Only working 75 hours a month..thats like 18 hours a week. Try working 40hours a week.

So let's get this straight, 96% of their pilots aren't professional enough. Manage your inherent fatigue better. If you can't, be quiet about it. It's your fault. We know you fully comprehended the sleep implications when you were in your 20's choosing this profession. You can't fix it now, how dare you imply anything needs improvement. The gall to demand your employer have higher staffing to accommodate your fitness to fly or quality of life. Fred says you have 1300hrs or something?? . I mean, they gave you a 24 hour layover. The key to being alert is to push the sleep button on the top of your head on your layover. Super helpful when you are required to go to sleep at 7am then 7pm 12 hours later.


Look at other industries that are known to work graveyard shifts with long hours. Please ignore medical malpractice, truckdrivers accidents, and poor judgement by cops where fatigue played a factor. They don't complain about being overworked, I think. In fact, working conditions are so great, there is never a shortage of police officers and truck drivers. Workers in those trades clearly wouldn't support improvements for themselves like these pilots are seeking. I bet this insults them. Now go back to staying awake for 20 hours, followed by having <24hours to get 2 seperate full night sleeps. Now do that back to back to back, please.

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

So not 90 trips as you said to start with, 45… so pulling an all nighter once a week and only 26hrs extra to make sure you’re prepared. I see the issue….


If you don’t like the lifestyle, don’t choose it as your job. Like I said don’t buy a house next to the airport and complain about the noise!



Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You could just admit you don't understand instead of writing these long posts.

Other than I do. I get that fatigue is safety critical to many industries including aviation however other industries have managed to have systems and expectations of their employees to be able to manage these in a may that somehow need special pleading for pilots. They have 1300hrs per year to manage it and either that’s not enough? Or some aren’t able to use those extra 1300hrs to manage their own fatigue. It’s pretty clear. We’re on an aviation website that always gives special pleading for its own folks, nothing new here.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

So not 90 trips as you said to start with, 45… so pulling an all nighter once a week and only 26hrs extra to make sure you’re prepared. I see the issue….


If you don’t like the lifestyle, don’t choose it as your job. Like I said don’t buy a house next to the airport and complain about the noise!



Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You could just admit you don't understand instead of writing these long posts.

Other than I do. I get that fatigue is safety critical to many industries including aviation however other industries have managed to have systems and expectations of their employees to be able to manage these in a may that somehow need special pleading for pilots. They have 1300hrs per year to manage it and either that’s not enough? Or some aren’t able to use those extra 1300hrs to manage their own fatigue. It’s pretty clear. We’re on an aviation website that always gives special pleading for its own folks, nothing new here.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

You could just admit you don't understand instead of writing these long posts.

Other than I do. I get that fatigue is safety critical to many industries including aviation however other industries have managed to have systems and expectations of their employees to be able to manage these in a may that somehow need special pleading for pilots. They have 1300hrs per year to manage it and either that’s not enough? Or some aren’t able to use those extra 1300hrs to manage their own fatigue. It’s pretty clear. We’re on an aviation website that always gives special pleading for its own folks, nothing new here.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aviation is safer than any other industry you listed by orders of magnitude. Errors by nurses, doctors, truck drivers, and police each account for THOUSANDS of deaths per year and many of them would probably tell you that fatigue was a large contributing factor to many of them. I also doubt they enjoy or would choose to have those schedules if they had the ability. If pilots operated as fatigued as these other groups do, there would be fatal plane crashes on the nightly news every single night.

Just because we've gotten to the point where aviation is really safe doesn't mean fatigue isn't an issue any more. And, for the record, I think these other shift workers need to be given less fatiguing schedules too. Safety shouldn't be the matter of "well other people have it worse" that you're portraying it as.

mikejepp wrote:

Figure8757 wrote:

I’m just a lowly crew scheduler but I work 4 16 hour shifts a week from 2pm-6am and am back at 2pm to do it all again. I’m getting tired of this industry existing to short change everyone without wings to fund pilots contracts. If you don’t like your job go do something else but stop screwing over the rest of the industry because you think you deserve more. You’re doing fine.

Thousands of people have died because of pilot fatigue. My guess is 0 of them were crew schedulers at work.

For the record, most pilots I know think crew schedulers should be paid more, get more time off, and have the resources they need to do their job.

Management likes to portray it as 99 dollars for us and 1 dollar for the workers. They then pit the workers against each other to fight over who gets the most share out of that 1 dollar. That way, management gets to make their money and they have all the workers in every sector fighting with each other instead of looking at management. How about instead you focus on the idea that all the workers, pilots, crew schedulers, etc are all on the same team and management is the problem? Being mad at pilots (your coworkers) just perpetuates the problems we all face.

Cactusjuba wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

You could just admit you don't understand instead of writing these long posts.

Other than I do. I get that fatigue is safety critical to many industries including aviation however other industries have managed to have systems and expectations of their employees to be able to manage these in a may that somehow need special pleading for pilots. They have 1300hrs per year to manage it and either that’s not enough? Or some aren’t able to use those extra 1300hrs to manage their own fatigue. It’s pretty clear. We’re on an aviation website that always gives special pleading for its own folks, nothing new here.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You keep mentioning 1300hours. What are you talking about?

flipdewaf wrote:

Cactusjuba wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Other than I do. I get that fatigue is safety critical to many industries including aviation however other industries have managed to have systems and expectations of their employees to be able to manage these in a may that somehow need special pleading for pilots. They have 1300hrs per year to manage it and either that’s not enough? Or some aren’t able to use those extra 1300hrs to manage their own fatigue. It’s pretty clear. We’re on an aviation website that always gives special pleading for its own folks, nothing new here.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You keep mentioning 1300hours. What are you talking about?

The difference between the amount of time expected to be performing duties between a pilot and other full time professionals.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

TonyClifton wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Cactusjuba wrote:

You keep mentioning 1300hours. What are you talking about?

The difference between the amount of time expected to be performing duties between a pilot and other full time professionals.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The hours on duty but not flying count as what?

mikejepp wrote:

Figure8757 wrote:

I’m just a lowly crew scheduler but I work 4 16 hour shifts a week from 2pm-6am and am back at 2pm to do it all again. I’m getting tired of this industry existing to short change everyone without wings to fund pilots contracts. If you don’t like your job go do something else but stop screwing over the rest of the industry because you think you deserve more. You’re doing fine.

Thousands of people have died because of pilot fatigue. My guess is 0 of them were crew schedulers at work.

For the record, most pilots I know think crew schedulers should be paid more, get more time off, and have the resources they need to do their job.

Management likes to portray it as 99 dollars for us and 1 dollar for the workers. They then pit the workers against each other to fight over who gets the most share out of that 1 dollar. That way, management gets to make their money and they have all the workers in every sector fighting with each other instead of looking at management. How about instead you focus on the idea that all the workers, pilots, crew schedulers, etc are all on the same team and management is the problem? Being mad at pilots (your coworkers) just perpetuates the problems we all face.

mikejepp wrote:

Management likes to portray it as 99 dollars for us and 1 dollar for the workers. They then pit the workers against each other to fight over who gets the most share out of that 1 dollar. That way, management gets to make their money and they have all the workers in every sector fighting with each other instead of looking at management.

flipdewaf wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

The difference between the amount of time expected to be performing duties between a pilot and other full time professionals.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The hours on duty but not flying count as what?

I never said ‘on duty’ as this appears to have industry specific definitions. I said performing duties. Many of my colleagues would be expected to be “on duty” for 60hrs at a time. They would also be expected to manage their rest suitably to be able to perform when needed.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

747megatop wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Management likes to portray it as 99 dollars for us and 1 dollar for the workers. They then pit the workers against each other to fight over who gets the most share out of that 1 dollar. That way, management gets to make their money and they have all the workers in every sector fighting with each other instead of looking at management.

Which is why moral of the story is be smarter and be management . Or be even smarter...super smart and be the top dog (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Scott Kirby, Ed Bastian, Larry Ellison, Richard Branson, Bill Gates etc. etc. LoL

flipdewaf wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Holy f*ck! Doctors! Nurses! Truck drivers. Police! And countless other precessions, They have to do this and work full time. What additional things are pilots doing to manage their own fatigue in the EXTRA 1300hrs they are given. If they are expecting others to be able to manage this for them (their employer) then they aren’t as professional as they would appear.

You could just admit you don't understand instead of writing these long posts.

Other than I do. I get that fatigue is safety critical to many industries including aviation however other industries have managed to have systems and expectations of their employees to be able to manage these in a may that somehow need special pleading for pilots. They have 1300hrs per year to manage it and either that’s not enough? Or some aren’t able to use those extra 1300hrs to manage their own fatigue. It’s pretty clear. We’re on an aviation website that always gives special pleading for its own folks, nothing new here.

questions wrote:

747megatop wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Management likes to portray it as 99 dollars for us and 1 dollar for the workers. They then pit the workers against each other to fight over who gets the most share out of that 1 dollar. That way, management gets to make their money and they have all the workers in every sector fighting with each other instead of looking at management.

Which is why moral of the story is be smarter and be management . Or be even smarter...super smart and be the top dog (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Scott Kirby, Ed Bastian, Larry Ellison, Richard Branson, Bill Gates etc. etc. LoL

Too much value is put on “leaders,” “high potentials” and “up or out.”

I have met some really super smart people who work in the lower and middle of organizations, love what they do and don’t want to move up. Not enough value is put on these folks.

Conversely, some of the biggest idiots I’ve met, excluding those in HR, have been at the top of the house. They may be better looking, more articulate and drive nicer cars. But don’t be fooled.

Pilots, and any work group for that matter, should never roll over to the whims of management when they are being taken advantage of.

questions wrote:

747megatop wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Management likes to portray it as 99 dollars for us and 1 dollar for the workers. They then pit the workers against each other to fight over who gets the most share out of that 1 dollar. That way, management gets to make their money and they have all the workers in every sector fighting with each other instead of looking at management.

Which is why moral of the story is be smarter and be management . Or be even smarter...super smart and be the top dog (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Scott Kirby, Ed Bastian, Larry Ellison, Richard Branson, Bill Gates etc. etc. LoL

Too much value is put on “leaders,” “high potentials” and “up or out.”

I have met some really super smart people who work in the lower and middle of organizations, love what they do and don’t want to move up. Not enough value is put on these folks.

Conversely, some of the biggest idiots I’ve met, excluding those in HR, have been at the top of the house. They may be better looking, more articulate and drive nicer cars. But don’t be fooled.

Pilots, and any work group for that matter, should never roll over to the whims of management when they are being taken advantage of.

BA777FO wrote:

How often do you two-crew LHR-TPA-LHR, two days off, two-crew LHR-MCO-LHR repeat for the rest of the month? And how many times do you go from a day shift, 24 hours off, cross 5 or 6 time zones and then do a night shift? And then land an aircraft at the end of it?

People have no idea. Let's hope the next time you fly the crew are well rested.

Aaron747 wrote:

questions wrote:

747megatop wrote:

Which is why moral of the story is be smarter and be management . Or be even smarter...super smart and be the top dog (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Scott Kirby, Ed Bastian, Larry Ellison, Richard Branson, Bill Gates etc. etc. LoL

Too much value is put on “leaders,” “high potentials” and “up or out.”

I have met some really super smart people who work in the lower and middle of organizations, love what they do and don’t want to move up. Not enough value is put on these folks.

Conversely, some of the biggest idiots I’ve met, excluding those in HR, have been at the top of the house. They may be better looking, more articulate and drive nicer cars. But don’t be fooled.

Pilots, and any work group for that matter, should never roll over to the whims of management when they are being taken advantage of.

Also don’t be fooled - the C class will always figure out a way to win. For example, their solution to the fatigue and pilot cost issues one day will likely be lobbying for fully-automated airliners.

questions wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

How often do you two-crew LHR-TPA-LHR, two days off, two-crew LHR-MCO-LHR repeat for the rest of the month? And how many times do you go from a day shift, 24 hours off, cross 5 or 6 time zones and then do a night shift? And then land an aircraft at the end of it?

People have no idea. Let's hope the next time you fly the crew are well rested.

This example exploded out for a month and with more detail would be really good.

Arrive at airport [time and zone]
Departure [time and zone]
Flight time [hours and rest]
Arrival time [time and zone]
Arrive at hotel [time and zone]
Depart hotel [time and zone]
Arrive at airport [time and zone]
Departure [time and zone]
Flight time [hours and rest]
Arrival time [time and zone]
Day off
Day off

[Repeat until required flight hours obtained.]

I don’t think most people understand how flight hours are calculated, how delays interfere, how time zones impact rest/fatigue. Just looking at flight hours does not paint a full picture of a Month in the Life of a Pilot.

Frankly, I want my flight crew and cabin crew rested.

Aaron747 wrote:

questions wrote:

747megatop wrote:

Which is why moral of the story is be smarter and be management . Or be even smarter...super smart and be the top dog (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Scott Kirby, Ed Bastian, Larry Ellison, Richard Branson, Bill Gates etc. etc. LoL

Too much value is put on “leaders,” “high potentials” and “up or out.”

I have met some really super smart people who work in the lower and middle of organizations, love what they do and don’t want to move up. Not enough value is put on these folks.

Conversely, some of the biggest idiots I’ve met, excluding those in HR, have been at the top of the house. They may be better looking, more articulate and drive nicer cars. But don’t be fooled.

Pilots, and any work group for that matter, should never roll over to the whims of management when they are being taken advantage of.

Also don’t be fooled - the C class will always figure out a way to win. For example, their solution to the fatigue and pilot cost issues one day will likely be lobbying for fully-automated airliners.

questions wrote:

Frankly, I want my flight crew and cabin crew rested.

questions wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

questions wrote:

Too much value is put on “leaders,” “high potentials” and “up or out.”

I have met some really super smart people who work in the lower and middle of organizations, love what they do and don’t want to move up. Not enough value is put on these folks.

Conversely, some of the biggest idiots I’ve met, excluding those in HR, have been at the top of the house. They may be better looking, more articulate and drive nicer cars. But don’t be fooled.

Pilots, and any work group for that matter, should never roll over to the whims of management when they are being taken advantage of.

Also don’t be fooled - the C class will always figure out a way to win. For example, their solution to the fatigue and pilot cost issues one day will likely be lobbying for fully-automated airliners.

No doubt.

I’m also a proponent private equity coming in and off-shoring the c-suite, then outsourcing it, then bringing back in house and automating it and finally spinning it off.

flipdewaf wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

Fatigue?! @<900hrs per year?!?! I call BS. I suggest if you are tired from that then you have medical issues. I do about 2.5times that but I like my job so I don’t really care.

If it’s tiring because you’re away from your family regularly, do a different effing job, that’s like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the noise.

Fred


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How often do you two-crew LHR-TPA-LHR, two days off, two-crew LHR-MCO-LHR repeat for the rest of the month? And how many times do you go from a day shift, 24 hours off, cross 5 or 6 time zones and then do a night shift? And then land an aircraft at the end of it?

People have no idea. Let's hope the next time you fly the crew are well rested.

I have regularly done 4x TATL trips in a month to spend them working nights trouble shooting in a factory and then flying home. Yes I wasn’t piloting but I got home and took my family in our HGV across the country between and it’s ok. I just had to plan and manage it like a pilot should be able to with their spare 1300 hrs a year. That’s what those extras are for, if you can’t manage it, do a job you can manage. Safety is of course important but it’s pretty obvious when it’s used as a silencing tactic. I’m absolutely not saying pilots need to “grow a pair and battle through” but a certain amount of perspective goes a long way. If it’s too hard to manage a rest schedule that sees you work ~1/3 of normal hours then probably not as professional as it would appear.

Fred


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Max Q wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

How often do you two-crew LHR-TPA-LHR, two days off, two-crew LHR-MCO-LHR repeat for the rest of the month? And how many times do you go from a day shift, 24 hours off, cross 5 or 6 time zones and then do a night shift? And then land an aircraft at the end of it?

People have no idea. Let's hope the next time you fly the crew are well rested.

I have regularly done 4x TATL trips in a month to spend them working nights trouble shooting in a factory and then flying home. Yes I wasn’t piloting but I got home and took my family in our HGV across the country between and it’s ok. I just had to plan and manage it like a pilot should be able to with their spare 1300 hrs a year. That’s what those extras are for, if you can’t manage it, do a job you can manage. Safety is of course important but it’s pretty obvious when it’s used as a silencing tactic. I’m absolutely not saying pilots need to “grow a pair and battle through” but a certain amount of perspective goes a long way. If it’s too hard to manage a rest schedule that sees you work ~1/3 of normal hours then probably not as professional as it would appear.

Fred


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So you think because you’ve crossed the Atlantic as a passenger a few times in a month it’s the same as the fatigue experienced by long haul crews that cross multiple time zones week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade and not always staying on the same schedule ?


And after your arduous crossing in the passenger cabin you didn’t have to land the aircraft, quite often in bad weather at the end of a flight that may have had any number of issues you had to deal with


You have no idea what you’re talking about